Third Session

Representatives of marginalized groups and victims of insurgency included: Indira Thapa, Mangal Nepali, Bijay Karna. Pushpa Bhushal chaired the session.

Indira Thapa (victim from Maoists): “We have to bear all the situations because human security has not been achieved due to the country’s condition. The Maoists have created an atmosphere of fear in Chiti of Lamjung. There is fear whether a person who has gone out for the day will return home in the evening. We have fear of the Maoists even in our homes. They confiscated our property on the charge that my father is a member of a political party. Maoists ask for food and the Army asks us why we fed them. Teachers and administrative staff were abducted from our school. Some people were abducted to be recruited in their army. The Maoists have warned against doing politics other than theirs. Our family has been punished for my father being an ex-Chairman of the Village Development Committee and they have been pressured to quit politics. Children have stopped going to schools to study. They used to make teachers fill their cash receipt vouchers and give children their army training. Again, the fear of being taken by them is still there. It is seen that they make their followers through fear rather than by their own will”.

Mangal Nepali (Dalit activist – Kaski): “Even though Democracy has come, Dalits being a backward class are exploited and not given leadership; though I am a political worker, they do not give me a good position of leadership. There is no thinking in our party and other parties that good leadership positions should be given to people of low class and caste. Likewise, they committed injustices to Dalits by expelling them from the villages and their own party also stood against them in the Lekhnath Municipality. Oppressed groups were also given trouble in Lahan. An organization called Saamudaayik Sewa was opened for social improvement. When I fought for presidency, they despised me for being a Sarki, and Brahmins, Chetris and other people from my own party were out to defeat me”.

Bijaya Karna: “There is division in society due to Hinduism. It is said that when god touches, one becomes pure. But here in our country, the feeling still exists that when an untouchable touches god, the god himself becomes impure. The same thinking also exists in the country’s authority. Political parties have not given equality to backward castes and ethnic groups, and the Maoists have utilized the issue”.

“Each human being should be given access to resources and means. All should be included proportionately in the decision-making process. The doors and windows to authority have been closed 272 years ago. Therefore, such doors and windows should be smashed. For human security, people of lower classes should themselves snatch their rights. But the serious question is how to have access to resources. Reservation, that is, positive discrimination, should be provided. Reservation should be done on education, employment and political leadership. Why can’t reservation be done to minorities when it is being done for the majority? There can be human security only when the minority has access to decision making. The meaning of wearing the same uniform and tie in schools is that everyone is treated equally”.

“Different castes have traditionally taught their children the system of touchable-untouchable, and discriminating and being discriminated. Therefore, this kind of system has to be changed. There should be reservations for backward Janajatis and Dalits. A student of a rural area cannot be made to compete with those of good private schools of Kathmandu. So reservation is needed. But resources and means are centralised in Kathmandu and in the palace in our country. We are called Madhesi in Nepal and Nepali in India: where shall we go? In our country, the division of electoral constituencies has divided the Madheshis. The Central Committee of UML has only two of them, and NC has three. In this way, the group with thirty six percent population has been made to lag behind. This started from the time of Prithivi Narayan Shah and not just now. The political parties are also carrying the same feeling and culture”.

“King Mahendra destroyed forests and environment after 1960. He resettled people from the hills to the Terai so that we Madheshis will not come up. After Nepali, our language whether it was Bhojpuri, Awadhi, Maithali, whatever, has not been protected or conserved. It has been said one language, one costume, our king and queen and our country, but the nation is in regional division. How can the same language and same costume be used in different climates? Our insecurity is the division and exploitation over us. Four million people in the Terai are without citizenship. This is inequality imposed by the state”.

“Help of Dalits, Janajatis and backward classes is behind the raising of weapons by the Maoists. The people of Terai also have raised weapons with the name Maheshi Mukti Morcha. There should be restructuring of the state in order to end the armed conflict. If there is no participation of people, there is conflict even within a religion. The division of Pakistan and Bangladesh is an example. A society and state of many religions and ethnic groups can also remain as one if there is representation and security. Though Maoists were right at first, a corrupt anarchic group has entered there. Therefore, the interest of all should be represented by reorganising the state”.

Naresh Palikhe: “Reservation should be done on the basis of economic conditions rather than on the basis of caste or Dalits. There was much problem in India when V.P.Singh implemented the report of the Mandal Commission. There will be social justice if it is given on the basis economic condition. To give access to the backward groups access to education, health, and employment. There should be provision of compulsory education because education is the reason for this”.

Shankar Baral: “Two issues have come up regarding a solution to the Dalit and Janajati problem- reservation, or federal structure. It should start from where division and oppression started in our society and its history. It should be ended. Social justice should be established only after people fully receive sovereignty. Wrong practices have come from the Janajatis also. Anarchy and conflict increases when they say “Cut the noses of those long-nosed and chase them away”. We should go in for a united structure for the benefit of all castes, classes and ethnic groups. For example, one particular religion should not be named; it should be open for all religions. Reservations are a temporary fix-up. So we should search for a long-term solution. It will benefit foreign powers if there is a dispute among the castes and classes here. Maoists given autonomous structure with the authority of self-decision will break nationhood. The solution can only be through the structure of bias on the basis of economy and participation over resources, and local autonomy”.

Shabnam Sharma: “Problems of the victims of conflict and those who disappeared are mostly male. After their disappearance, their children and women have received much pain and torture. The problem of food is there in its place. Those people living in the area used by the landless sustain themselves through daily work. So, in such a situation, they are in a great problem. Therefore, both the state and the rebel side should help them. The issues of women, Dalits and Janajatis, should be raised during election time. They should always raised and should be solved”.

Prem Kumari Surkhali (Tanahun): “The untouchables are victims of inhumanity. Many Dalits are based on agriculture. They are afraid to get involved in selling milk. Likewise, there has been no change in the traditional occupations. There is no right over land. The practice of untouchability on the basis of caste has still not been considered as a crime. This is a background to the Maoist rebellion. Though the Muluki Ain of 1963 does not recognize this practice, it is still present in our society. People were punished in Gulmi for touching water. Though there is a provision of one-year imprisonment and fine of three thousand rupees for practicing untouchability, it has not been so in strict practice. There is no representation of Dalits, Janajatis and women in political reservation. The reservation that should now be provided should be clear on Dalits”.

Mithu Bishwakarma (Tanahun): “In the month of Ashwin, the Maoists came to our village school and began to beat and warn the teachers. Nothing was done to students of grade 1 to 5. Those studying in grades 8 to 10 were beaten. The students then stopped going to school. Students stopped going and their guardians are also in fear because the Maoists have said they will take away the students”.

Surya Kala Thapa (Lamjung): “Dalits are not allowed to entry into our house. My own experience is – when a Dalit brother came to our house to carry rice, he kept it in the veranda. I asked him to come inside but he didn’t. Therefore, one should also not keep the feeling of inferiority within oneself. One should be conscious, outgoing and understand that all are equal. Women and people living in the villages are behind in all the fields of education, communication, and health. Therefore, consciousness in cities alone is not enough; there should be access and easy availability in all areas for consciousness in the villages also. Development is possible only if women are involved as equals”.

Dhanmaya Biswakarma (Syanja): “The upper castes Chetris and Brahmins had collected milk in ward no. 3 of Sarek V.D.C. When Dalits took milk there, they were not allowed to keep it there. Then they did not allow the mixing of the Dalit’s milk. Their milk was kept separate and thrown away. Syanja Mukti Samaj and human rights activists went there and settled it. But no punishment was given there. Those organizations and the civil society that say Dalits should also have rights should raise their voice. There have been cases where the upper castes have stopped collecting milk thinking that Dalits will also come and mix their milk. Reservation is good, but education for whom? We don’t know whether actual Dalits will get it. The people of upper castes came to our place and dined with us, but they scolded us when Dalits talked about being leaders. The upper castes stay together with the Dalits in hotels and meetings but do not take them home saying that the old people in their families do not want it. There will always be old people in the society. It will never be without them. Although we were nominated in the local bodies, our voice was not heard; we were laughed at, not treated equally. Many Dalits and women have had to suffer pain and need, just because they are Dalits and women. Reservation should be mainly to Dalits and women. Reservation is not needed forever; it should be done for a definite period”.

Ganga Nepali (Parbat): “The laws that were made for the Dalits remained confined to paper only. If the laws are not used, such laws should be repealed”.

Sulochana Sharma: “What kind of untouchability is there among Dalits themselves?”

Naresh Palikhe: “There is untouchability even within the Dalits; that should be done away with. It should be searched how and where the foreign help that comes in the name of Dalits go. The change of 1990 came only politically. There should have been a social change. That went wrong”.

Prem Kumari Surkhali: “There are divisions among Dalits themselves and among other classes/castes. All should solve it together”.

Shabnam Sharma: “There are also conditions where Dalits do not receive the opportunities and benefits that come for the Dalits, because the lower castes write the surnames of the upper castes”.

Ganesh Datta Bhatta: “Attention should be given to the structure of the state. The minorities and backward classes do not have access to government. Therefore this problem can be solved only by their involvement. It is seen that parties are not sensitive in this matter. Organisations also should think about this. It should not be said that nothing has happened, but change should be done”.

Indrakala Baral: “How will there be an outlet in the politics and movement of class by taking the problems as economic problems? It should be thought about what kind of structure is needed when making psychological changes. When they see a male friend, there is a question about how to go there. We should consider quality and quantity. Culture is the blood of society. Therefore, society should make changes accordingly. For that, should we wait for history or bring about change by making a structure at the present? It is necessary to have socialisation of women. From house to state, everything is male dominant. Men have died in the Maoist movement but women are affected by it. A woman dies mentally, and lives physically. How can this be solved?”

Prof. Lok Raj Baral: “Due to social security, there will be psychological changes and empowerment. A favourable environment is needed for this. Parties, the learned, those with understanding, and civil society who are the agents of change, should take the initiative for change. There are agitations in the streets, but for whom and for what? It can’t be waited too long for change. Therefore, the solution should be made by collective effort by making a structure. There has been much change in east Nepal; that should spread. A radical approach is needed to change society”.

Naresh Palikhe: “Political parties have also done something but it depends on the leadership. B.P. Koirala had made Dhanmansingh (a dalit) a General Secretary”.

Sarita Giri: “In case of the Dalit movement of Lahan – they have to live as Dalits so far as identity is concerned. The Indian case shows that the quotas of Dalits and backward groups were unfilled even though it had been given. They are not able to leave their beliefs, customs, attitudes and search for a solution. On what basis should we classify majorities and minorities? There are different basis. Apart from women, all are in minority. No one is in majority. Therefore, the solution should be at two or three levels. Language should be given priority. Community democracy should be brought to local levels. Like, there has been solutions in South Africa. The role of women is pity in America also. So there should be multiple mechanisms”.

Jhapat Bahadur Gurung: “There has been exploitation to Dalits and Janajatis. Issues like this come only during the elections. That is why they have been involved in the Maoist movement. The traditions here should be broken. Although some Janajatis are rich, they have not become rich by the wealth of the country. It is seen so because of the wealth they have earned in other countries. Reservation should be done first to Dalits, Janajatis and women. Reservation should be done to bring them at par with others. The problem of Dalit and Janajatis should be solved through the provincial structure also. There should be reservation in politics, representation, education, in all areas. If not, issues of Limbuwan, Taraiwan, Tamuwan, will come up. Change should be brought in the traditional power structure”.

Krishna Khanal (Political Scientist, Tribhuvan University): “The state should make policies and plans to resolve the problem. Little efforts through immediate solutions won’t bring anything. The state is multi-ethnic, which should be reflected in the structure of the state. It should be done step by step and there should be a drastic and new change. Fresh start should be done. Sustainable solutions are possible only in democracy. Only affirmative action is not enough. Concepts about autonomy should be taken to every place. Political parties are also not clear in their thinking. Therefore, the political parties should also first make a right perspective on this”.

Bijaya Karna: “Our perspectives are not open. The king is the root of all problems. The Hindu religion also gives a great status to parents but opposed to it, the king is considered greater. On the basis of economy not when taking, but only when giving – this should not be done. In human security, there should be security of food, clothing, shelter, education, and health. But first, participation should also be made in decision-making. There should be a federal structure. The perspective of India’s prophet Dr. Ambedakar has worked. Therefore the backward classes, castes, ethnic groups and Dalits should be brought into the federal structure. Has Switzerland disintegrated? Reservation is one stage, but not a formula for ending all root problems. Upper castes and states are the root of feudalism and therefore they should be limited. The view that a religion run regime can make power strong, is not so in practice”.

Pushpa Bhusal: “Reservations in the Public Service Commission and in education, as mentioned in the Tenth Plan, were done only for show. It was tried to implemented without making changes in policy, rules, law and in practice. So it could not be put into practice. Although there was much noise about women’s right to property the state’s structure is not generous on reservation. The state should give justice, behind which there should be justification. There should be a minimum standard for reservation; the backward class that falls in it should be given reservation. Only that will bring social justice. The constitution should make a binding provision and make social change”.

Day Two, 28th November, 2004
First session

Results of the survey on the State of Democracy in Nepal: Survey Report- 2004 presented by Dr. Krishna Hachhethu

Dr. Krishna Hachhethu: “Among the 3249 respondents, 45.5 percent were illiterate and 51 percent of the people do not have access to mass media. In the survey, 87 questions on democracy and its related subjects like security were asked in urban areas as well as in rural areas. The situation in the surveyed areas was not easy. Some years ago, one did not have to fear speaking. But now, 58 percent disagreed to the statement that people are free to speak their mind. In the 5 or 6 years after the restoration of multiparty system, there were many people who usually talked about politics with their friends. Now, 5.4 percent often, 29.1 percent occasionally and 65.5 percent never discuss politics with their friends. People used to talk everywhere about politics after the multiparty system was instituted. But nowadays, only 5.6 percent discuss politics with anyone, 18.3 with people they know well, 27.3 percent with close friends and family members and 48.8 percent with no one”.

“On the question ‘how safe is living in this city/village’, 18.7 percent said it is safe, 67.3 percent said little unsafe and 13.9 percent said it is unsafe. Comparing with the condition a few years ago, 12 percent called the present condition as more safe, 54.8 percent less safe and 33.3 the same as before. On the causes of insecurity; anti-social elements like thieves, dacoits/robbers, thugs, alcohol/drug addicts, molesters, rapists and other criminals accounted for 62.3 percent, political situation for 21.1 percent, Maoists for 20.8 percent, state for 14.7 percent, etc”.

“On whether they had to deal with the police, military/security forces personally in the past one-year, 7.8 percent said yes and 92.2 percent said no with the police, and 6 percent said yes and 94 percent said no with the military/security forces. Among those who dealt with them, 65.2 percent found the military/security forces helpful, 22.8 found them indifferent, 10.9 percent found them harassing and 1.1 percent found them involved in physical attack/torture. With the police, 59.5 percent found them helpful, 26.4 found them indifferent, 12.4 percent found them harassing and 1.7 percent found them involved in physical attack/torture”.

“On the level of trust on some government institutions, 21.0 percent said great deal of trust, 44.5 percent said some, 20.7 percent said not very much and 13.7 percent said not at all. On the level of trust on the police; 25.5 percent said great deal, 46.5 percent said some, 17.1 percent said not very much and 10.9 percent said not at all on the army. On parliament, 17.4 percent said they had a great deal, 42.6 percent said they had some, 21.5 percent said they did not have very much and 18.5 percent said they did not have any trust at all. 13.7 percent said they had a great deal, 38.9 percent said they had some, 25.1 percent said they did not have very much and 22.3 percent said they did not have any trust at all on political parties”.

“On the form of regime, 11.2 percent strongly agree, 23.8 percent agree, 35.9 percent disagree and 29.0 percent strongly disagree that the country should be ruled by the army. 24.6 percent strongly agree, 34.4 percent agree, 23.8 percent disagree and 17.1 percent strongly disagree that the country should be ruled by the king. 64.1 percent strongly agree, 29.9 percent agree, 3.7 percent disagree and 2.3 percent strongly disagree that the country should be ruled by the people chosen through fair election”.

“On the issue of majority and minority, a majority of the respondents appeared sympathetic to the minority rights, including women rights”.

Bishwa Kalyan: “It sounds like there is some bias against political parties in presentation of the survey findings. Some questions seem contradictory to one another. For instance how could more than 50 percent favoured ‘special treatment’ in the lights of responses to follow up question about equal ‘treatment’, opted by more than 50 percent. These questions should be put in either/ or options”.

Sabnam Sharma: “The survey did not show anything on misbehaviour against women. Likewise, how will people talk at once about politics? For this, there should be much familiarization”.

Sulochana Sharma: “In a case of theft by children, there was one account given to the police and a different one when asked separately. There are issues of traditional insecurity”.

Krishna Khanal (Political Scientist, Tribhuvan University): “The conclusions from the research have come as a summary of surveys in many districts. There is no meaning of personal opinion in it. However, there will be different answers when responding to the same thing if it was done with respondents having personal cases of atrocities by the Maoist or the army”.

Khagraj Adhikari: “The cases of Pyuthan Harasjung’s murder case, discussions with the army and the police, the overall reflection of the country, are not as shown in the survey. However, these findings show that the political parties should restructure themselves. The people also do not want that the king to take power – this is what the data refers to”.

Jhapat Bahadur Gurung: “There is no credible base in police administration. They don’t reach the site of an accident in time. They go there after a long time, because of which there is no faith in the people towards the police. General people do not want to talk about politics due to their insecurity. There is dissatisfaction from the activities of bigger political parties”.

Ganga Nepali: “In a village in Parbat, the Maoists took a girl forcefully but said that she has been taken in their consent. Later, that girl fled from them and came back. Again the security men blamed her for working undercover for the Maoists. Who will give security? The state should be sensitive”.

Laxmi Barali: “The police troubled and tortured on allegation of being a Maoist – later released on the initiative of the Mukti Samaj”.

Mithu Bishwakarma: “45 percent have said that women are secure from domestic violence. But this is not true in practice in households. There is more domestic violence from mother-in-laws, husbands and others. The villages and cities are more insecure. In Sisaghat of Tanahun, there was security for the people three years back but it is not there now. There is Maoist insecurity”.

Naresh Palikhe: “It is a positive expression. What have come from expressions and the media, and this survey results are controversial. 42.2 percent have said that they have been able to speak without fear: there is a contradiction between our thinking and this result. This report has shown that parties should reform themselves”.

Shankar Baral: “Political parties should reform themselves. There is insecurity from the state and the foreign military – the results do not show it. Similarly, there is nothing about the fear from the Maoists. In the current situation, such questions should also have been included. Political parties are decisive in security”.

Dhanmaya Bishwakarma: “There is much domestic violence. In a case in Syanja, a person was locked up in a house; he went to the Maoists, the security bodies tortured him physically and mentally. In the case of Meena Bishwokarma, there was domestic violence, she was accused of being a Maoist for marrying inter caste and given much trouble”.

Suryakala Thapa: “The country’s situation may be good but if we take the villages, there is one thing of insecurity or the other. It can’t be said to be very secure. There is insecurity in every place. There is a fear to speak, double slaps in from the army one day and the Maoists the next. Because of this fear, there is insecurity from both the state and the Maoists”.

Indira Thapa: “There is insecurity in the villages due to the absence of the government. There should be rule by the elected people”.

Som Raj Thapa: “The survey shows that people have put more trust in the army. They put things straight before the police but are afraid to, with the army. The informed people also do not want to keep contact with the army. The people, political parties should rule. There is no trust in leaders. The people also do not look towards other government employees, but only political parties and activists”.

Nawal Upadhyay (Inspector – District Police Office): “Why has there been less contact between the people and the police? What work has the law given to the police? Is it to give security to the common people or to fight the Maoists? The training given to the police is only up to fighting the robbers. It fought with the Maoists for seven years. There may have been errors. The positive side should also be seen. Programs with more interactions with people, public hearing, and going to their homes is effective. There has been improvement in the image of the police after 1990 than before it. The study on domestic violence is inadequate”.

Ganesh Datta Bhatta: “National security is greater than human security. Since 45 percent are illiterate, how can they respond? Likewise, 51 percent saying they did not have contact with the mass media is contradictory. On the security of village, it is positive for many respondents. On the question of trust in institutions, the police, army and political parties should not have been kept at the same place. On another question, anti-social element has been shown more. The picture of grass roots is not seen”.

Sarita Giri: “The question on the form of government [rule by king, army or elected representatives] is controversial. The people of Terai consider the army and the police evil. On the question of trust, there should have been judiciary with the police and army. The sense of security has increased in the headquarters. This is experience of Terai”.

Bijay Karna: “How could only 6 percent of the masses indicate having contact with the police? In Sarita’s village, 50 people were killed. How could that be security? Though there may be security for sometime from terror, it won’t be for long. If it is so, did the police become terrorists or not? How did only Maoists become terrorists? There should be a solution and training on other human problems but not to kill people. Economic, social and cultural aspects should also be added in human security. There is an increase of crime in the Terai, there is no proper security of police and administrators”.

Khagraj Adhikari: “General people do not have access to the police. They can be contacted only through political parties and pressure groups. The victim do not have direct contact with them. The state structure itself is incapable and ineffective. Intelligence department has totally failed”.

Bishwakalyan Parajuli: “The number of deaths from the army and state is more than those from the Maoist. Many have died from social problems of drug addiction, HIV etc. The answer of this may have come from the uneducated, etc”.

Leena Rikkila – International IDEA: “The result that 3 percent said it is unsafe and 97 percent said it is safe – how do we read and understand this result. How to evaluate it? A person is not always afraid. Only in the time of some incident. The person may not have been in a state of fear at the time being questioned. A person also takes fear as a normal part of life and not a special case. Dealing with security personnel any number of times, the person will take it as a normal activity and not any special dealing. There is also the question of accuracy. Who did the respondent think the investigator may be or may be representing?”

Indrakala Baral: “The insecurity from anti-social elements is seen more. Less has been seen of the state and the Maoists. Less thought has been given to the social sector”.

Harsh Sethi: “Responses to the question of security and insecurity should be seen from the prevailing situation that the people in general feel less comfortable to speak with a stranger. Then the terminology that the majority of the people are ‘status quoists’ on issues of monarchy, religion and language is not appropriate”.

Sulochana Sharma: “The problems that we see and know may not be there where data was taken. In the villages, the common people may not have considered it a problem. There may be problems with the rich and those who can pay and feed in the villages, but the common people may not have that problem and that may have brought positive answers”.

Krishna Hachhethu: “There is a difference in the conditions in the early 90s and those now. If there was that level of insecurity in the villages as we generally perceived, the survey could not have been done. Maoists were met in the field but it did not repeat. When 29.5 percent of people still say they are closed to political parties, this is reality of the situation about security/insecurity environment. A personal case study should not be generalised. Meeting of people with police/army at roads was not considered as issue of security. Only incidents and arrests were taken to be so”.

“A common charge of popular dissatisfaction goes to political parties rather than the army and police. There is more dissatisfaction with the way democracy worked but the alternative is also democracy. Since the last one-year, there are no check posts in villages where there have not been contacts with the police and army. How can there be contact?”

“Local assistants were used and that helped in achieving credibility of the survey. Of several precautionary measures taken, the investigators were instructed to the extent to what types of clothes, bags and shoes should not be used”.

“Frank answers come forth in open-ended questions. The uneducated, those without access to the mass media may have some difficulty in answering but they gave frank answers in the security related questions In villages, it is domestic violence only if there is beating and torture. Therefore it is not necessary that our thinking and thinking of villages be the same”.
The program ended with a vote of thanks from Jiwan.